Scholte: There has been a lot of press coverage in
Germany about poor labor conditions in Bangladesh garment factories. In
January, the German TV program Markencheck brought footage of poor Bangladeshi
girls who work in factories that produce for Lidl and H&M and do not make
enough money to live. The H&M program also showed part of an interview with
you, where you say that garment workers need at least 7000 taka (EUR 70) to
cover their basic needs.
Uddin Ahmmed: Yes, I was interviewed, but I did not know that
I appeared in German television.
Scholte: After the show, people started to question
whether they should buy clothes made in Bangladesh. What would be your message
to German consumers?
Uddin Ahmmed: My message would be: buy garments made in
Bangladesh and help rural Bangladeshi girls to be self-reliant and have a
dignified life.
Scholte: How does a German consumer do that? German
consumers want to help the poor girls they saw on the Markencheck television
shows – but they do not know how to help. What can they do?
Uddin Ahmmed: As
Germany is the second largest importer from Bangladesh and number one in
Europe, consumers can put pressure on the buyers to pay a fair price for their
order and ensure that a fair share goes to the worker.
Germany is
a democracy, so German civil society, on behalf of German consumers, should mobilize
the German Government to communicate with our government and insist on measures
to secure international labor standards for the workers. There are government
to government relations in many areas, including technical cooperation support.
Even more
importantly, safeguard the activists who promote the rights of workers. Help them
mobilize and organize workers. The Government of Bangladesh does not allow or
safeguard trade union activities, does not allow mass mobilization or protect
the leaders.
This is
what German consumers can do. To stop buying Bangladesh products is not the
solution. This would make it worse for workers in Bangladesh.
From the outside you see that people are suffering. We also see that people suffer. But if there are no job opportunities and if these workers are not aware and mobilized enough to protect themselves, simply saying something from the outside will not bring about any change.
From the outside you see that people are suffering. We also see that people suffer. But if there are no job opportunities and if these workers are not aware and mobilized enough to protect themselves, simply saying something from the outside will not bring about any change.
Scholte: But who is going to mobilize them? There are a lot of labor unions in
this country.
Uddin Ahmmed: Yes, there are lots – everybody is a labor
union. There are several types of labor unions: First there are those that are
actually affiliated and associated with a political party – unfortunately, they
are the big ones. Still they make a contribution. Then there are some
federations that are only personality based. Maybe ten years back there was a
big federation with five leaders. These five leaders had an identity crisis and
could not agree who would be president, secretary, etc. Now there are five
federations.
The
politically based unions make some contribution to the workers even though they
are politically based. But the personality based federations exist simply for the
personality – they make no contribution. On paper, there are 32 federations, in
reality there are only 8 or 10.
Scholte: As you say, the big unions have political ties
and political interests. How can you ensure that labor unions in Bangladesh
really represent workers?
Uddin Ahmmed: There are ways. The workers need to be
mobilized and organized. Why are the unions fragmented and politicized? Labor
union activity is only on the surface – it is limited to the top leadership and
individual initiatives, because the government does not allow democratic
practice within the factory, within the industry. Even though the new Labour
Law 2006 does allow labor unions, there are few safeguards from the government
side for organizers. Unless and until we allow mass workers to join a union, to
participate in a union, then it is quite natural that it is only an initiative
of an individual or group of individuals.
The
government does not act to protect organizers. This is one thing. Second, when
you take initiative at the factory level, the national trade union movement
should be backing you up, but in the readymade garment sector there is a big
gap between the factory level and the national trade movement. Protection from
the national trade movement is weak and inadequate.
Scholte: Because the labor unions in Bangladesh are so
fragmented?
Uddin Ahmmed: The problem is that the garment sector has
grown rapidly in the last 15 years and it is now huge. The workers all have a
rural background and the majority are women. These are characteristics that our
traditional trade union movement could not cope with. It was not a willing
failure. The sector has simply grown too fast. Traditional trade unions cannot
cope with this. Not that they are not willing. Their strategy needs to be
changed.
People
suffered for the first ten years – they died. There were long working hours, the
minimum wage was very low. Since they are human beings, individuals and groups
of individuals started protesting. They were sacked, lost their job. But they
had a group. They knew they needed to protest – so they founded a union, but
from the outside. As they are all very new and small, they do not have a lot of
support from the unions or much communication with each other. That is why
there are lots and lots of small, unconnected labor groups in the readymade
garment sector, operating from the outside.
The
employers coopted some of them out to act on behalf of the owners. And then
some ultra-left political parties came along, pushing their own political
ideology – they call strikes for political purposes. Furthermore, people at the
national labor centers who are on the board of national trade unions also felt
responsible to get involved when there was a crisis.
And then alongside
all this, there are huge foreign interests – human rights groups, trade unions,
consumer rights groups. They typically have a link to some people in this
country. When there is a foreign link, there is money and support from abroad. That
is why there are a number of NGOs, small, small groups who claim to speak for
the workers. The situation is very complex.
But still are
also some positive signs. I am listing all the negative aspects, but the
situation has some positive developments.
Scholte: For example?
Uddin Ahmmed: After the 2005 uprising, workers‘ problems received
attention. This is the most important positive change. Now, nobody closes their
eyes anymore. Many factories have improved their working conditions. The
government is attentive. They don’t allow trade unions, but they are paying
attention. When something happens, they are there. Not like the days when they
tried to minimize media coverage when there was a fire – it is no longer like
that.
So we got
an increase in minimum wage in 2010 to 3000 taka a month. This still does not
cover the workers‘ needs, but it is far better than it was. People no longer
think that the workers are just women coming from domestic work, so you don’t
need to worry about them. The situation is not like that anymore.
Workers are
much more aware than earlier. They know that protest got results. Not like
before 2005, when they thought they could do nothing, so they accepted 500
taka. It is no longer like that. And the national trade union movement is
seriously thinking that they have to do something more than what we have been
doing. We have to integrate the various initiatives and actors. Furthermore,
civil society is very conscious about the workers.
But there
is still a gap. Government, civil society, media attention – everybody looks at
the situation through a humanitarian lens, not as a human rights issue. Important
journalists and lawyers in the country are very serious about workers‘ issues,
but their perspective is that you should take care of the workers, you should
increase wages. If workers themselves protest, they are not supported. These
important people then say, “No, this is not your business; we will talk to
government.” This is the gap.
Workers
must mobilize. From the outside, we cannot do anything. It is very easy to talk
about workers from the outside – where I am very safe. That is not the
solution.
Scholte: What is the best hope for mobilizing workers in
a way that really represents the interest of the garment workers – most of whom
are women?
Uddin Ahmmed: We need to work in three areas: First of all,
there should be very a basic education program – not an awareness campaign – a
lot of NGOs are doing that. But education about labor and health rights, so
workers feel that they are a worthwhile human being with the right to a decent
life.
Secondly,
we need pressure on the Government of Bangladesh. Not a campaign to stop
imports to Europe, but pressure on the government to implement a labor
governance system to cope with this huge industry. We have an industry which
encompasses 3.5 million workers, but what about inspections, what about the labor
law? Before workers start to demand things, the government should implement its
law and the labor code. All the workers are in two cities. Not a single brick
was put in place for their accommodation, no toilettes. How are these people living?
This is also the government’s job, isn’t it?
Finally, support
the trade union movement, whatever it is. Work with those who are active. We
cannot import some people from outside. So, work with them, take time to bring
them together and make integrated three-year, five-year plans. Support them
slowly, not all at once. Use foreign training, seminars.
Scholte: Is there no international support of trade
unions?
Uddin Ahmmed: Some, but most has gone to the NGOs. NGOs have a limited role. They can raise
awareness, but they cannot mobilize. And who are the international trade unions
supporting? The problem with international people – I am not condemning them – the
problem is that they support the people they know without having done a
situation analysis. They are also helpless, they have some money and the
motivation to do something and then they start supporting…
Another
thing…Stop this negative propaganda! Negative propaganda cannot change anything.
We are a country of 160 million people. It is not so simple. We cannot just
ignore the situation of these girls. We cannot do anything that will force
these girls simply to return to their villages. But at the same time, we cannot
accept that these 3.5 million workers live an undignified life. We need to
balance both.
Scholte: How are the conditions and wages in the garment
sector compared to other industries?
Uddin Ahmmed: Pharmaceuticals pay much better, but only
employ skilled people. Compared to construction, shipbuilding, tannery,
leather, electrical work, garments is in the middle somewhere.
Domestic
work is worse than anything. There is no legal protection under the law. Women
earn nothing. In the wealthier areas of Dhaka – Dhanmondhi, Gulshan, Banani –
domestic workers earn 1500 taka a month. It is less in other are, about 800
takas in Mohammadhpur But some girls are going back to domestic work, because
at least they have a bed and food. Otherwise garment workers pay half of their
wages for rent.
Scholte: The question of housing is really critical. Is
anybody trying to address this?
Uddin Ahmmed: Nobody. Everybody is talking about it. Nobody is
doing anything. There are two workers’ rights issues outside the workplace that
need to be addressed: housing and health. These are huge problems. We cannot
let workers live in this condition that affects their health and that of the
next generation. This is not just the responsibility of the employer – the government
must share this. Health and housing are government issues. Employers should be
involved, but government must take the initiative and make a plan. It is not
impossible.
Scholte: Is overtime paid fairly now?
Uddin Ahmmed: I have no research on this, but my observation
is that it is paid, although you cannot say fairly – the law says you have to
pay double. What happens is that they pay double, but maybe only for two hours
instead of three – since the law says that only two hours overtime is allowed.
Maybe 70% of the firms pay overtime; perhaps 30% do not. Of the 70% who pay
overtime, maybe 30% pay it strictly according to the law. In other words, 50%
pay something for overtime. Still the working day is long for some.
Scholte: Are workers given the required day off?
Uddin Ahmmed: Now because of the energy shortage, electricity
is cut in different areas for one day a week. This has helped the workers, as the
factories are forced to shut down for one day.
Scholte: Is there any sign that minimum wage will be
increased this year?
Uddin Ahmmed: I don’t think so, not this year. It should be
an issue, but the government won’t do it this year. And now because of the
economic recession, BGMEA[1]
is starting to say that they are in big economic trouble. Actually they are
not, but they say that.
Scholte: What should minimum wage be?
Uddin Ahmmed: if you support workers with fair price food, it
should be 5000 – 7000 takas. But without food and accommodation support, then
you don’t know what it should be. But with food and accommodation at a fixed
price, then even 5000 takas is OK.
Scholte: How friendly are these unions to the women? Do
they understand the needs of the women? Are they acceptable to women?
Uddin Ahmmed: I would say that they understand the problems
of the women and want to solve the problems, but they are still not prepared to
share leadership with women. It is complex. There is a mindset of wanting to do
good for society, for marginalized people, but not allowing them in your space.
We have come from traditional Indian society, with its caste system. We want
society to be good, but we want to maintain control. The same applies to men
and women. Men workers want women to be in a good position, to have a decent
life, etc. They want women to advance, but not up to their position, not into a
leadership role.
We cannot
change things overnight. After years of struggle, people are now talking about
women’s leadership. When we started our first training, we had a 30% quota for
women. 15 years ago there was a lot of discussion about that. But now labor
leaders have a woman as their deputy. They may not be in the same category as
men workers, but I believe there is progress.
Women‘s
issues are a priority. Half of the workforce consists of women, if you include garments.
We can’t do anything without them. Union leaders have enough sense to
understand that they will lose their power base without the women.
And then,
in Bangladesh we are not as conservative as India. I am optimistic. There are
some hopeful signs and I am sure we will move ahead.
Scholte: Thank you very much for your time!
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[1] Bangladesh
Garment Manufacturers and Exporters Association
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